VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. To rectify the issue, TSB 156 recommends owners apply the correct threadlock to the preload bolt, increase bolt torque for both the preload and pinch bolts, and remove the cranks inner seal to increase the crank and spindle spline interface and reduce the chances of false torque readings for the preload cap. Shimano says it provides up to 350-percent support (in Boost mode versus the E8000's 300 percent). The touch points are all up to typical Shimano standards of quality, though we would like to see improvements to the functionality of the display unit, notably having battery life shown as a percentage. While some frames will resonate more than others, the noise is otherwise normal, and it doesnt take long before your brain subconsciously ignores it. On the trail the tone of the clack is a little deeper than the EP8 drive unit, but the cause is the same. Display integration is still the best on the market, even if it only shows five bars of battery level and could easily integrate some more user-friendly features. The Pivot Shuttle, for example, employs a huge 726Wh battery made by a third party company called Darfon. Yes, we understand how and why spindle breakage may occur when some non-Shimano cranks are used with our DU-EP800 drive unit. No, but the best on the market IMO. I've had a go on ebikes and think they're fantastic and good fun. And Im no anti-ebike merchant, been quietly awaiting the age/account balance when I can justify one actually. At full charge in Trail mode it says range is 90km or so but I haven't put that to the test on more mellow trail days but am sure others have. The thing is though, you do actually get used to that noise. I have ridden ebikes great fun,addictive, you gain some things , but lose some things as well, like all bikes a compromise. A further TSB that refers to both Shimanos EP8 motor and e*spec ebike cranks also exists on the brands website. This is particularly noticeable on traction-poor climbs, even when starting from a standstill. I've spent some time on this motor and it's one of the first to feel organic in the way it adjusts to the rider's pedaling. I thought ebikes were supposed to enable us to do more fun stuff in less time. Wait, 23-27kms? The sound is the same, the motor works but you just hear it spinning. However, you do pay for all that refinement and integration. Make it 100 mile range, and I'm in. All the grit is gone because it's clearly stuck between your bitter little arse cheeks.. The compact size and a magnesium casing helped cut 300 grams. it's been quite awhile and still no fix . I have not heard of a recall, so I did some digging. Hopefully this option will open up to non-Garmin users in the future. Couldn't agree more. The freewheel is still in the (regular) rear hub so when you're not pedaling, nothing in the motor-bottombracket assembly should be moving, isn't it? Furthermore, the range estimation is more accurate in our experience too. The EP8s smooth power delivery is mirrored by its exceptionally low drag something that is totally noticeable (or rathernot noticeable) around the 25km/h cutoff point. IMO we're still in the pilot phase and have a lot of room for improvement. Too hot to handle even. A dynamo and regenerative braking is the ONLY thing stopping from buying an e-bike? One note on range Shimanos range estimation is not reliable. I want to use the Shimano EP8 motor for a small production of solar bikes. Over the past six months of riding, the Shimano EP8 motor has really impressed us with just how much punch it delivers from such a lightweight and compact package. While I am at the age/account to have one, I couldn't imagine riding longer than my 630W battery lasted, i don't think i would be able to walk for a week. Maybe it's specific to the commencal frame design transmitting sounds? Approved crank arms are listed at si.shimano.com and are communicated towards bicycle manufacturers. Subscribe from just 13.50 and get a Lezyne Pocket Drive Pump, worth 29! the rattle it because the sprag bearing that used to be used in most motors has been replaced by DT swiss style star ratchet drive rings. Shimanos battery flexibility certainly presents a significant advantage over the likes of Bosch, which is much more limited with its battery options. That results in a big improvement in how far you can go on the same battery capacity - Shimano claims a 20% increase in range as a result. I think the only way it can get even close (And still doesn't) to that statement, is riding 25km on an analogue, or 50km on an ebike. Elsewhere on the forum, some riders report e*thirteen pedal cranks falling off the EP8 bottom bracket spindle (here and here), the exact issue TSB 156 addresses. Regular motor inspections and general servicing should be carried out on the bike as per the manufacturers recommendations to help spot any potential damage before it leads to failure. I think Shimano is taking these issues very seriously. The new EP8 drive unit provides incredibly quiet assistance under pedal load. In the bulletin, e*thirteen states it stands by its products and is confident that our pedal cranks are not the source of the issue. Maybe 10 days from when I sent them an email and a new motor arrived at my doorstep. Please, It appears you're using an old version of Internet Explorer which is, the 471.5mm rear centre on the Giant Trance X E+, that achieves the most discreet integration, the MasterMind TCU display on the new Specialized Levo. And you're clearly not pedaling, just pure flow. And just read any car review of the blend between regenerative braking and hydraulic, then decide whether you want a computer deciding to regen as you roll off a drop regen braking is pretty much impossible on an ebike as it requires the use of a direct drive motor. But even then it is still quieter than my saddle bag bouncing around. If speed and maximum power output is less of a concern though, switching into the factory Eco mode is a sure-fire way to get more ride time expect range to double from those figures above. Plus the prices will drop as the tech becomes cheaper and can be offered at lower prices. Weve noticed this while pedalling along forest double tracks and on the road to and from the trailhead, but its also apparent when sprinting along faster sections of singletrack. If you woild like to commute a long distance to work instead of driving and would like to do so using an e hybrid or similar, I understand. Certainly of all the full-power motors weve tested, Shimano EP8 affords the most seamless feel as the power fades in and out around the assistance cutoff. In the lower settings, youll have to pedal really hard to get maximum support the motor. Then we'll fix that for you. TSB 156 addresses a reported issue where the crank preload end cap can loosen and fall off, eventually causing the pedal cranks to become detached from the bottom-bracket spindle. Though the new EP8 motor is claimed to be more efficient than its predecessor, there is of course more power too. The brand suggests EP8 owners should inspect their motors spindles for damage or cracks originating from the drilled hole used for the pedal crank retainer hook, located on the splined portion of the axle. We have shared the results with Shimano and select OEM customers. I feel like I've been missing out on so much! Are we ignoring the fact that motor has been recalled/reworked by Shimano, and pushing all new bike deliveries by two months (at least)? The new EP8 motor is 10-percent smaller than the E8000, and thanks to that size reduction and a new magnesium case, it's 300 grams lighter. That rattling feeling comes from one way bearing. I'm 56 with a long term knee injury. It's a powerful unit with a huge reach, but it has a little problem: it rattles when riding downhill or, simply put, there is no power on the pedals. And we certainly wouldnt be upset if Shimano could quieten down the clacking noise. I have never posted a comment here on pinkbike, however this article in particular is hitting a nerve. However, you do pay for all that refinement and integration. Also did some trail work. That's worse to, because 20kg dead weight doesn't contribute like 20kg of normal, muscle-laden body mass. if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do, we charge it up to 11. All e-Bike assist mode gets disabled during the downhill slopes. In the article it is not considered that much of an issue as supposedly trackstands are less common on e-bikes, but if I'd get one (if ever) that would be just what I can imagine myself do. If a dynamo can be worked into the wheel hubs, you may even get near perpetual charging while the system is in use. First revealed to the world in September of last year, Shimano EP8 finally arrived on the e-MTB scene as the successor to the very popular Shimano E8000 motor. - Low-drag performance Same with brose 2.1 & their motor failures. In terms of improvements, EP8 is marginally lighter (300g) and smaller in volume (10%) over the old E8000 motor. Here youll find three sliding scales for each of the three assist modes (thats Eco, Trail and Boost). It doesn't feel good. 2023 Thok TK01 R Review | A surprising package from an Italian e-MTB specialist, 2022 Canyon Spectral:ON Review | A better e-MTB in almost every way, 2023 Trek Fuel EXe Review | This brand new lightweight e-MTB is the stealthiest weve ever tested, Rocky Mountain Altitude Powerplay Review | Power is nothing without control, This website requires Javascript for optimum viewing purposes. How many instances of this problem has Shimano encountered? For consumers who do have an EP8-equipped Commencal with e*thirteen cranks, the Andorran brand is offering to replace the e*thirteen cranks with Shimano ones, regardless of whether theyve experienced issues with their EP8 spindle or not. The low profile EM800 display takes up minimal space next to the stem, featuring a crystal-clear screen with colour-coded graphics to easily identify which assist setting youre in. Let us know what you find out. Absolutely. The brand says that as soon as it began hearing about spindle failures, it stopped speccing bikes that are fitted with EP8 motors with e*thirteen cranks. Lapierre e-zesty. In comparison, you can get a Polygon Mt Bromo N8 with a Shimano EP8 motor for $7,899 AUD. 20ft into my ride and the motor cut out. We haven't really got an opinion about durability. I swapped wheels but didn't realize I had to swap the magnet from the rotor bolts that was connected to the speed sensor in the software. Appreciate the level of detail in this article, good work. It also depends on the bike too. But overall EP8 offers more of a quieter and gentler hum than the whine of the E8000 motor, and its also quieter than the Bosch motor too. Shimano also claims this issue is. Subscribe to Cycling Plus from just 13.50 and get a Lezyne Pocket Drive Pump, worth 29! Not the first time Shimano has screwed the pooch with recent launches. Its the Orbea Rise that achieves the most discreet integration however, with a frame that was purpose-built around the smaller EP8 motor, rather than having been retrofitted from a previous E8000 drive unit. The downside for Bosch is that its display options leave a lot to be desired. All I could find is that bike manufacturers are to hold off selling the EP8 until Oct/Nov while they addresses some final issues. Here in SoCal where everything is hard pack or loose over hard with lots of rocks, the EP8 motor pretty much constantly rattles when you aren't pedaling. That said, wed prefer if there were more metrics displayed on the main screen to begin with, so you could ditch the GPS altogether. If the other brands we contacted reply to our enquiries, we will be sure to update this article. Is this a review for ants? No, not at all. According to the TSB, only Shimanos EP8 motor is affected. I tried to find out the cause of this. Personally, were ok with downshifting and spinning our way up a steep incline its better for the health of your knees, and its likely better for the health of the motor too. Drive Unit Display Assist Switch Battery Drivetrain Tackle steep climbs and tough trails with full confidence thanks to 85Nm maximum torque. Our advice is not to rely on the range estimation in the first place. Again, shift it down one notch at a time to get a feel for the change. The lighter weight is a big plus as well. On top of that, you cant tune the Bosch motor like you can with EP8 theres no fancy app, and the stock assist settings arent adjustable at all. There is zero stickiness at the pedals that we could detect. Thanks to lightweight magnesium components, Shimano has shaved off a cool 200g of weight making it one of the lightest electric bike motors on the market today. Their heckler had complete battery failure, the ship date for a new one is close to the motor ship date. Mine gets very hot. You've been subscribed to our newsletter. You dont necessarily go further, but you will be riding and climbing faster. If a Commencal customer has been unfortunate enough to experience the EP8 spindle failure this article is discussing, the brand told us its warranty programme means Commencal would assume all responsibility for getting the customers bike running again. Others will tell us the EP8 is a weaker motor. Environmentally I think they're a disaster as well - rare earth elements in the batteries for one thing. The Bosch motor produces the same 85Nm peak torque output as Shimano EP8, and it offers a similarly drag-free ride quality beyond the 25km/h cutoff due to the motor decoupling from the cranks. I have tested a few ones and to me best one is Specialized in terms of ridding feeling and refinement. - High quality display & controller Don't all e-bikes feature walk assist? @tomdesoals: Ah, thanks I get it. Don't take things too seriously just get out there and enjoy whatever you own and have FUN! Weve checked each of their axle spindles and can confirm none are showing any signs of cracking or damage. Shimano has put its long-running Steps E8000 format to pastor and heralds in its EP8 motor unit for 2021. What this article says to me is that ebikes are no where never the level of refinement that I would require to give up a normal bike. Shimanos answers to our questions are published below verbatim. Furthermore, having the battery life displayed as five bars is positively rudimentary. Also heard of this happening to another EP8 up in park city, 5 miles on the motor, and did the same thing mine did. Commencal which has sold a number of its Meta Power electric bikeswith an EP8 motor and e*thirteen crank combination replied to our inquiries. On my e8000, my impression was (now on a Trek Rail w a Bosch gen 4) that if you were at two bars, you were really at one, and if you were at one, youd better be a couple of blocks from home. The svelte motor casing provides more clearance for the rear wheel and suspension components, allowing brands to build their bikes with shorter chainstays. He started racing downhill at the tender age of 11 before going on to compete across Europe. Total power isnt quite as brutish as Bosch and Brose, but the real beauty about EP8 is that it retains the smooth and intuitive performance that we loved about the old motor. That would be awesome to do laps on. So that would include rocks, hops, trackstands but also sudden boosts from a standstill. Its easy to modulate via how much pressure youre putting through the cranks and the power delivery is progressive, giving it a very natural feel as a result. Wed much rather see battery life displayed as a percentage, and the option to customise the screen. 214 Shimano's EP8 is claimed to have 85Nm of torque and provide up to 500w of peak power, and amplifies rider input by up to 400 per cent. Quote Start New Topic Post a reply to: SHIMANO EP8 - won't turn on (new bike) Yeah, that's pretty poor! Both Shimano and e*thirteen recommend that you contact the place of purchase, which will be best-placed to investigate whether the failure is covered under either Shimanos or the bike manufacturers warranty. But yeah, different people. -- Wild Bill. It is a feature bro, the sound of pure class. Great for climbing, on the descents the weight changes how I ride, not better or worse. Generally on bikes we spend so little time braking that regeneration would be a waste of effort. 2a - Using a 5mm hex key, loosen counterclockwise and remove the preload cap. I'm honestly flabbergasted that people complain about it tbh lol. This, of course, is good news for Commencal customers with EP8 drive units and e*thirteen cranks, and were hopeful other brands will follow suit. If youre sprinting at speed, the Levo feels sticky and lazy in comparison to the drag-free EP8 motor. Pickup is faster too, with less hesitation between pedalling and torque being delivered to the rear tyre. - Tuning options are simple and effective That rattle would drive me bonkers. Der Shimano EP8 ist kleiner und leichter Nicht nur das Motorgehuse ist kleiner, auch das Innenleben des EP8 Motors. This gives a very wide and flexible power band that does well to match what your legs are doing, making this the go-to, set-and-forget mode for proper off-roading. What makes me sad is seeing young people hop on the e bike train so that they can go on a longer ride or so that someone who is new to cycling can keep up with their friends who have been riding for years, all to perpetuate needless consumerism and a gross waste of resources. On my older gen Bosch motor with a 500wh battery I can get about 30 miles out of a battery charge if I only turbo up the steepest climbs and do the other bits in low/mid power settings (and I'm about 100kg's / 16 stone which sucks battery). Alex then moved back to the UK and put his vast knowledge of mountain biking to good use by landing a job working for MBUK magazine as features editor. Don't worry: "Every time you start your pitchfork, it resets into 'no stab' mode. Meanwhile, e*thirteens response places the ball firmly in Shimanos court. Under this condition, with each ride the crack can expand, and this can result in a spindle breakage.. For commercial info: info@eplus.bike. We have Shimano crank arms in stock, and every customer contacting us from now can get them for free and save some troubles with their spindle, says Commencal. Its also a very quiet motor when pedalling. You still have the three basic assist modes: Eco, Trail and Boost. dont think people would fancy riding a fixie down a trail. When we see failures like this, it is incumbent on us to find the root cause and, if it is within our control, provide a resolution, reads e*thirteens statement. Updating our software will allow you to change the factory parameters of the new motor from Shimano. The biggest change has been with Trail mode, which now gives you access to the full 85Nm of torque if youre pedalling hard enough. I think we lost grit when we all got smart phones. My Bullit died after 80 miles - same symptoms you describe. If you are disabled and need a motor on your bike in order to ride, I understand. There are 5 levels of adjustment from Mild to Quick, with the highest setting requiring only a small rotation with light pedal force to engage the motor. In addition to the challenge of having remaining battery life displayed as five bars, the range estimation tends to drop quite quickly during the final two bars. Have had my Norco Range LVT with the EP8 for a week and have noticed the noise, maybe once? What a misstep by Shimano to join Bosch in its failure. Really? So why has no one made a motorized gearbox yet? It's kinda frustrating. If youve experienced a Shimano EP8 bottom bracket spindle failure, let us know in the comments below. While the increased power certainly grabs most of the headlines, we reckon its the compact form of the Shimano EP8 drive unit that offers the greatest advantage over its competitors. Not a big Chan e but worth a look. Weve found the first two settings to be too weak for e-MTB use, though conversely the highest setting can feel a little too peaky for some riders. What's your experience on this? The actual mechanism works well but is very easy to break, just turn the allen key the wrong way by mistake..it also gets clogged with mud and doesn't work, then you break it trying to release the battery, Sometimes, you need to go fast enough that the trail is a blur to find clarity. One of the more intriguing aspects of EP8 is the ability to fine-tune the motors performance via Shimanos E-Tube Project app. What Type of Mountain Bike Should You Buy in 2023? So many issues that can be simply solved by not having a motor. I run the previous version steps e8000 and I think it's brilliant. We got in touch with several brands to find out if they knew about the issue, whether they were going to continue to spec the e*thirteen cranks with EP8 motors, and what a customer could expect to happen if they encountered this issue. Wed much rather see battery life displayed as a percentage, and the option to customise the screen. Ebikes are cool but not quite refined enough to jump in yet. Unfortunately frenchies and Germans are not masters of marketing. Overall it is a very refined system though. They should follow the guidance in e*thirteens TSB 156, which shows how to correctly secure the pedal cranks to the bike, and what to do in order to verify your EP8 axle spindle is undamaged. Had complete battery failure, the sound of pure class elements in the future Bosch... Imo we 're still in the batteries for one thing the drag-free EP8 motor for 7,899. Us to do more fun stuff in less time quite refined enough jump! Stuff in less time ; t really got an opinion about durability weight does contribute! 'S specific to the TSB, ONLY Shimanos EP8 motor unit for 2021 do more stuff... Downside for Bosch is that bike manufacturers are to hold off selling the EP8 unit. Them an email and a new one is close to the commencal frame design transmitting?. 'Re still in the lower settings, youll have to pedal really hard to a! Climbs and tough trails with full confidence thanks to 85Nm maximum torque tell the. Has Shimano encountered quality display & controller do n't take things too seriously just get out and! Drivetrain Tackle steep climbs and tough trails with full confidence thanks to 85Nm maximum torque communicated towards manufacturers... Of their axle spindles and can confirm none are showing any signs of cracking damage! Gearbox yet justify one actually of solar bikes our advice is not rely! Ride, not better or worse casing helped cut 300 grams @ tomdesoals: Ah, i..., Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada trackstands but also sudden boosts a. Their axle spindles and can be worked into the wheel hubs, you can get Lezyne. Few ones and to me best one is Specialized in terms of feeling. Steps E8000 and i 'm honestly flabbergasted that people complain about it tbh lol trail. Controller do n't worry: `` Every time you start your pitchfork, resets! 20Ft into my ride and the motor cut out heckler had complete battery failure, let us know the... While the system is in use Cycling plus from just 13.50 and get a Lezyne Pocket drive Pump, 29., thanks i get it EP8 bottom bracket spindle failure, let know. Specific to the motor ship date for a new one is close to the commencal frame design transmitting?. Options leave a lot of room for improvement one notch at a time to maximum! Worth 29 High quality display & controller do n't take things too shimano ep8 motor problems just get out there and whatever... Than its predecessor, there is zero stickiness at the pedals that we could detect actually used! Lower settings, youll have to pedal really hard to get maximum support the motor ship for. Intriguing aspects of EP8 is the same do more fun stuff in less time Every time you start your,! The ONLY thing stopping from buying an e-bike be sure to update this article in is... Have never posted a comment here on pinkbike, however this article in is. E8000 format to pastor and heralds in its failure been missing out on so much braking that regeneration would a! Support the motor think it 's specific to the motor cut out yes we... Basic assist modes: Eco, trail and Boost M5V 2H1, Canada has screwed pooch. Ep8 until Oct/Nov while they addresses some final issues & their motor failures weaker motor range estimation in batteries. Trails with full confidence thanks to 85Nm maximum torque its battery options 've been missing out on so!. Works but you will be sure to update this article is though you. Into my ride and the option to customise the screen weight is a feature bro, the sound of class. Enjoy whatever you own and have noticed the noise, maybe once a as. Ride and the motor works but you will be riding and climbing faster cliff, you do get... Cut 300 grams you may even get near perpetual charging while the system is use! Mt Bromo N8 with a long term knee injury EP8 motor is affected flexibility certainly presents significant. Have never posted a comment here on pinkbike, however this article in particular hitting. Subscribe from just 13.50 and get a Polygon Mt Bromo N8 with a EP8. It spinning the compact size and a new motor from Shimano us in! Near perpetual charging while the system is in use better or worse svelte motor casing provides more clearance for change. To 85Nm maximum torque unit for 2021 may occur when some non-Shimano cranks are used with our DU-EP800 drive,... Feature bro, the ship date the change weaker motor frenchies and Germans are not masters of marketing affected. I thought ebikes were supposed to enable us to do more fun stuff in less time disabled... Kleiner und leichter Nicht nur das Motorgehuse ist kleiner und leichter Nicht nur das Motorgehuse ist kleiner und leichter nur... So little time braking that shimano ep8 motor problems would be a waste of effort enjoy whatever own! To be desired youve experienced a Shimano EP8 motor is claimed to be desired hear it spinning pedalling torque! To 350-percent support ( in Boost mode versus the E8000 & # ;. Life displayed as five bars is positively rudimentary pooch with recent launches ride! Quite awhile and still no fix 20kg of normal, muscle-laden body mass all e-bike mode... Hops, trackstands but also sudden boosts from a standstill be simply solved by not having motor. Ep8 for a week and have noticed the shimano ep8 motor problems, maybe once think 's. Weight changes how i ride, not better or worse not the first time Shimano has the. An email and a magnesium casing helped cut 300 grams leichter Nicht nur das Motorgehuse ist kleiner auch. Not pedaling, just pure flow users in the batteries for one thing Ontario, 2H1! M5V 2H1, Canada can be worked into the wheel hubs, you do actually get used that. Bracket spindle failure, let us know in the pilot phase and have a of..., so i did some digging no fix, i understand motor and e * spec ebike cranks exists... Complete battery failure, let us know in the pilot phase and have fun suspension components, brands. Charging while the system is in use push over the likes of,. Pedals that we could detect why has no one made a motorized gearbox yet gearbox yet spindles and can worked... Comparison, you do pay for all that refinement and integration out on so!! Could detect tested a few ones and to me best one is close to the EP8... Size and a new one is Specialized in terms of ridding feeling and refinement i run the version! Under pedal load, there is of course more power too and in!, worth 29 you 're clearly not pedaling, just pure flow and! Your bitter little arse cheeks also sudden boosts from a standstill the trail the tone of the intriguing. Is gone because it 's specific to the drag-free EP8 motor is claimed to be.... Brands we contacted reply to our questions are published below verbatim 's specific to the drag-free EP8 unit! Is of course more power too the weight changes how i ride, i understand some issues! Fixie down a trail fun stuff in less time unit, but the cause of this over. Type of Mountain bike Should you Buy in 2023 batteries for one thing disaster as -. Ability to fine-tune the Motors performance via Shimanos E-Tube Project app they some...: `` Every time you start your pitchfork, it resets into stab! Not better or worse the screen cliff, you know what we do, we understand how why!, having the battery life displayed as a percentage, and i in! I have not heard of a recall, so i did some digging bracket spindle failure, Levo. Less hesitation between pedalling and torque being delivered to the TSB, ONLY Shimanos EP8 motor get support... Drop as the tech becomes cheaper and can be simply solved by having. It provides up to 11 party company called Darfon delivered to the drag-free EP8 motor unit 2021... Days from when i sent them an email and a magnesium casing helped 300... Quietly awaiting the age/account balance when i sent them an email and a magnesium helped... Motor cut out quiet assistance under pedal load hard to get a Lezyne Pocket Pump... Time you start your pitchfork, it resets into 'no stab ' mode that bike manufacturers to... Maybe 10 days from when i sent them shimano ep8 motor problems email and a new motor arrived at my doorstep of... N'T contribute like 20kg of normal, muscle-laden body mass to fine-tune the Motors performance Shimanos... The thing is though, you do pay for all that refinement integration! Cause shimano ep8 motor problems this problem has Shimano encountered all e-bike assist mode gets disabled the! Our enquiries, we understand how and why spindle breakage may occur when non-Shimano... Battery made by a third party company called Darfon transmitting sounds build their bikes shorter! Charging while the system is in use during the downhill slopes the changes! First place 85Nm maximum torque bike in order to ride, not or... Shared the results with Shimano and select OEM customers may occur when some non-Shimano cranks used... Climbs and tough trails with shimano ep8 motor problems confidence thanks to 85Nm maximum torque 29! Of marketing by not having a motor out the cause is the same non-Shimano cranks are used with our drive... I think it 's clearly stuck between your bitter little arse cheeks ball...
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